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aberman



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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Tank/Heal/Melee Dps/Ranged Dps Reply with quote

There is a very interesting article written by Hatch noting warcraft population, not only by class, but by main spec, and also whether they are a tank, healer, melee dps. or ranged dps. The article also has very interesting points with regard to actual tank demand and healer demand versus actual. For reference, the article can be found at:

http://esc-hatch.blogspot.com/2010/04/cataclysm-class-population-or-world-of.html

Anyway the point is that sensus should be not only able to sample class percentages, but also tell what spec they are, and in the case of druid or death knight (given the appropriate gear), look at the gemming to be able to tell whether the toon is a melee dps or a tank.

Census should also be able to report on tank population by realm, healing population, melee dps population, and ranged dps population. It should also be able to tell within the specific class, for example druid, what percentage is feral, what percentage is balance, and what percentage is resto. For feral, it should say what percentage is bear and what percentage is cat.

I feel that this would make the add-on much more useful. Your thoughts please, and also answer the servey, thanks!

I don't see the servey posted for some reason but the question is:

Should the Census+ add-on include this feature?
(yes/no)


Last edited by aberman on Thu May 13, 2010 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kosh



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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the only way (AFIK) to get talent / gear info in-game is by "Inspecting" them, which has fairly tight range restrictions, and must be done one character at a time. Census+, on the other hand, uses the "Who" interface to collect what information it does for up to fifty characters at a time. If you do a "Who" yourself (a tab on the Social window), you'll see what little information is available.
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1974ER
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm... the provided link does not work (at least for me)... and as Kosh pointed out, the "Who" command does not provide the sort of information you are interested in.

The sort of reports you are describing would require an out-of-game solution, probably an advanced web-crawler, which would collect data from the Armory. And even that would be tricky... some people like to log out in RP/fishing/etc gear... how does one classify a level 80 warrior, who is wielding a fishing rod, has a cloth head, leather boots, etc? Is a level 80 female night elf druid who is wearing nothing but mageweave pants a tank/DPS/healer? What happens to any character's classification, if a player throws in something funny, like 21/25/25 or 35/36/0 spec?
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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the link now. Like I said, I think that we need information of percentages by spec, not just by class. We even need to know what percentage of death knights are tanks, and what percentage are melee dps. Make that ditto for feral druids.

Maybe it is difficult to get the information. Ideas?
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replied on the other thread about this but yeah, it's just not possible with the way Censusplus works currently - to make it happen would need to add in armory crawling, which is a pretty big directional shift for the site and probably very difficult to implement. That's not to say I don't like the idea, it'd be nice to have that much data, I just cant see it being particularly likely to happen.
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I could do, and what I even tinkered with a little in the past, was gather data on players who you targeted, when I could.

I could conceivably do the same here. It wouldn't be able to tell every single person in the game, but it would give a good starter.

Actually, now that I think about it, the best way would be to just troll the armory data and pull that info and compile it. Aren't there other sites that already do something like that?

Or is the primary reason for this to have it readily accessible within the game client?


PS. Removed the dupe thread to keep the conversation here
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Kosh



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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To expand on what 1974ER (the Epic Censi Cool ) pointed out about crawling the Armory, I'll point out that a character's information is only updated when the char logs off (and not always then). If they happen to be wearing their "party clothes" when they do, that's what you will see in the Armory.

As for their talent specs, the Armory again only captures the spec you logged out with, so if they have dual-spec, and they usually tank (with an "obvious" tank spec), but often switch to their other spec (for questing, PvP, whatever) before logging off, you probably won't assign them their "main" role.

As 1974ER mentioned, how do you categorize a character who hasn't gone deep into a single talent tree, but spread their points across two or all three trees? Pick the one with the most, even if it's only by one? What do you do if there's a tie?

I don't play a druid, but I was wondering how you tell a "feral cat" from a "feral bear"? If there are specific talent points that only one or the other tend to have, what if they have points in both? If it's only by what armor they are wearing, then you're back to the first problem (or they're not "well-geared" enough for whatever criteria you're using to tell).
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't play a druid, but I was wondering how you tell a "feral cat" from a "feral bear"? If there are specific talent points that only one or the other tend to have, what if they have points in both?
Talent tree and (major) glyphs... Wink

Let's have a look at my druid:
Bear Tree --> http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZxGGscrzceRcczAkbE0z:zn0Mzm (Maul Glyph is somethimes changed for Growl, depending on the encounter)
Cat Tree --> http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZEG0cfrz0eR0huVkbEczb:mpV0mz

Main differences:
Cat have no Imp Mangle, Thick Hide, PotP, Infected Wounds or Survival Instinct
Bears have no Shredding Attacks, KotJ or Predatory Instincts

There are however some hybrid builds that let you perform to some degree (I wouldn't want to do end-game raiding with it) with the same talents for both cat and bear..
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, yes, forgot about the glyphs (and that they also switch if you pay for dual-spec).

Thanks for letting me know more about druid talents, FuxieDK. Smile

It sounds to me like it would be tricky to programmatically put someone in a specific feral sub-category if they deviate from a "standard" talent build and put some points in both (or are not high enough level).

Talent-tree parsing is definitely out of scope for Census+, but the more I think about it, the more problems I see with trying to use that to categorize characters. I would imagine "serious" end-game players / characters tend to have similar talent trees for the role they are playing, but not every player or character falls into that category.
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Rollie said, all that the Census+ would have to do to accomplish this, is to take the names of the people that it has seen in the last 30 days and look them up on the armory with a function that lists spec and whether they are a tank or not in the case of death knight and feral druid.

This would not have to be done live in the game at the same time as the "/who" lookup, but it could if programmed to do so. Either method would be useful. If you just simply trolled the armory without the "/who" information gathered from all players logged on the server, you wouldn't see up-to-date information as to what classes are actually being played.

Thats the reason for combining the two.
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1974ER wrote:
Ummm... the provided link does not work (at least for me)... and as Kosh pointed out, the "Who" command does not provide the sort of information you are interested in.

The sort of reports you are describing would require an out-of-game solution, probably an advanced web-crawler, which would collect data from the Armory. And even that would be tricky... some people like to log out in RP/fishing/etc gear... how does one classify a level 80 warrior, who is wielding a fishing rod, has a cloth head, leather boots, etc? Is a level 80 female night elf druid who is wearing nothing but mageweave pants a tank/DPS/healer? What happens to any character's classification, if a player throws in something funny, like 21/25/25 or 35/36/0 spec?


Answer (1): If the player logs out in fishing gear, you could throw out his data. How many people actually do this? It should not be a problem or affect the ability to take an accurate sensus.

Answer (2): If someone actually bothers to spec 21/25/25 or 35/36/0, throw out their data too. Their information is clearly an outlier. It cant be that many people that do this as well. Not only does it not make sense to do this, but the player would actually have to pay gold to intentionally make a bad spec just to dupe people in the sensus or the armory, followed by paying an increased price to respec once they logged in. They would have to continue to do this each time to ensure that no one could get accurate information and it would get progressively more expensive each time the player did this. Who actually raids or plays pvp with that? (apologies if this sounds snide)
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aberman wrote:
This would not have to be done live in the game at the same time as the "/who" lookup, but it could if programmed to do so.
Uh, how? An addon has no way to access anything outside the game, including Armory web pages.

aberman wrote:
Answer (1): If the player logs out in fishing gear, you could throw out his data. How many people actually do this? It should not be a problem or affect the ability to take an accurate sensus.
Probably more than you think. In a broader sense, you would have to figure out how to programatically determine how closely a character's armor matches a preconceived concept of a particular role, and whether it is "close enough" to count or discard.

aberman wrote:
Answer (2): If someone actually bothers to spec 21/25/25 or 35/36/0, throw out their data too. Their information is clearly an outlier. It cant be that many people that do this as well. Not only does it not make sense to do this, but the player would actually have to pay gold to intentionally make a bad spec just to dupe people in the sensus or the armory, followed by paying an increased price to respec once they logged in. They would have to continue to do this each time to ensure that no one could get accurate information and it would get progressively more expensive each time the player did this. Who actually raids or plays pvp with that? (apologies if this sounds snide)
You're making a huge assumption, but perhaps that indicates an implicit assumption on your part that (almost?) all characters are "serious" PvP and / or end-game dungeon players.

To cover the specifics, yes, it is unlikely many people are respeccing before they log out to "hide their spec", but they could very easily be actively playing with what you consider a "bad" spec. Different people play the game for a variety of reasons, and not all characters being actively played (even from a "serious" player) are going to fit into the predefined roles you seem to believe all characters should fall into.

Now that we know that you will just discard all "outliers", the next step is to determine just how close to your "ideal" spec a character must be before it is counted for that bucket. At this point, I am assuming that you would just discard all non-80's, but I suppose you might let them in if they come "close enough" statistically to one of your ideal specs.

In either case, I am wondering how close you think a player needs to be to what you consider an "ideal" spec, before they are placed in that bucket. 100% match is programmatically simple, but that would probably eliminate quite a lot of characters that I would imagine even you would consider worthy. Lower required percentages get more complex, especially if you start weighting talents that you consider more important. Take feral druids, for example. What do you do if they have 90% match to feral bear and feral cat? This isn't even considering the characters who have paid for dual-spec and actively play two roles. If they generally only do one role, but often switch specs (to farm, for example) before logging off, then you won't count them "correctly". On the other hand, if they play two roles / specs about evenly, then they will jump between buckets depending on which they were when they last logged out and were rescanned.

This is just a WAG on my part, but I suspect you'd get less than 20% of the eligible multi-role-capable characters into your pre-defined buckets. It doesn't seem very statistically useful if the largest category is "none", given your stated reasons, and it seems like too much work for too little gain (to me) to have the website periodically fire off almost six million multi-page queries of the Armory.
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1974ER
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with a lot of things Kosh said... Answer 1 is highly realm dependant. You would get most accurate data out of pure normal (lots of PvE specs and gear) and PvP (lots of PvP specs and gear) realms and the least accurate out of pure RP (lots of RP specs and gear) ones, with RP-PvP (mixture of PvE, PxP and RP specs and gear) falling somewhere between those two extremes.

Answer 2, no not hiding, but actually USING a non-optimal spec (and/or gear)... speaking of which... you would need a huge number of "throw out" checks... putting 71 points into one tree is not a good idea either... but is a certain 5/51/15 better than 15/51/5 or maybe one should spec 3/51/17? Good spec but RP gear -> out, "bad" spec with good tank gear -> out, etc?

In short, as Kosh stated, you are likely to end up with a large amount (even majority) of "none" / "unclear" / "does not match parameters" specs / gear. Besides, overtly simplified system could cause cases where a mage does not qualify as ranged DPS, rogue is not a melee DPS, resto spec shamans / holy priests are not healers, etc... Does using a two-handed weapon automatically make a DK a DPS, etc?

Or.. how does a non-DPS, non-tank, non-caster druid (or paladin) grab you? WinkVery Happy
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warlocks often use a 0/41/30 spec, which at first glance looks to be out of wack, but it's not.. It's commonly know as the Felguard-spec.

And even though it lacks the 51-point talent (which is the most common way of identifying a spec), this particular spec is actually a viable demonology PvE-spec.
You maximize your personal dps with it, with the expense of sacrifice of raid-buffs..
It will out-dps Meta/Ruin-spec (also a Demo-spec), but the lack of raid buffs, makes it less efficient for the raid as a whole..
It will probably NOT out-dps 0/17/54 (Destro-spec), but it's popular, because it's less gear-demanding..
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also just plain fun specs, I've got a 30/28/3 priest and 23/37/1 warlock, both lvl 70 so ok may not be counted anyway, but they're not intentionally bad specs, just not-so-common ones that are fun to play (dps/soloing build for the priest; I hate shadow, love holy dps!) and perfectly adequate for soloing so I really do play with them. Would be a bit tricky to decide what to do with cases like that, since they're genuine really-used specs; should they be ignored just because they don't fit a pigeonhole determined byan arbritary group of people? Not arguing for or against, just mentioning it as a question Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kosh wrote:
aberman wrote:
This would not have to be done live in the game at the same time as the "/who" lookup, but it could if programmed to do so.
Uh, how? An addon has no way to access anything outside the game, including Armory web pages.

aberman wrote:
Answer (1): If the player logs out in fishing gear, you could throw out his data. How many people actually do this? It should not be a problem or affect the ability to take an accurate sensus.
Probably more than you think. In a broader sense, you would have to figure out how to programatically determine how closely a character's armor matches a preconceived concept of a particular role, and whether it is "close enough" to count or discard.

aberman wrote:
Answer (2): If someone actually bothers to spec 21/25/25 or 35/36/0, throw out their data too. Their information is clearly an outlier. It cant be that many people that do this as well. Not only does it not make sense to do this, but the player would actually have to pay gold to intentionally make a bad spec just to dupe people in the sensus or the armory, followed by paying an increased price to respec once they logged in. They would have to continue to do this each time to ensure that no one could get accurate information and it would get progressively more expensive each time the player did this. Who actually raids or plays pvp with that? (apologies if this sounds snide)
You're making a huge assumption, but perhaps that indicates an implicit assumption on your part that (almost?) all characters are "serious" PvP and / or end-game dungeon players.

To cover the specifics, yes, it is unlikely many people are respeccing before they log out to "hide their spec", but they could very easily be actively playing with what you consider a "bad" spec. Different people play the game for a variety of reasons, and not all characters being actively played (even from a "serious" player) are going to fit into the predefined roles you seem to believe all characters should fall into.

Now that we know that you will just discard all "outliers", the next step is to determine just how close to your "ideal" spec a character must be before it is counted for that bucket. At this point, I am assuming that you would just discard all non-80's, but I suppose you might let them in if they come "close enough" statistically to one of your ideal specs.

In either case, I am wondering how close you think a player needs to be to what you consider an "ideal" spec, before they are placed in that bucket. 100% match is programmatically simple, but that would probably eliminate quite a lot of characters that I would imagine even you would consider worthy. Lower required percentages get more complex, especially if you start weighting talents that you consider more important. Take feral druids, for example. What do you do if they have 90% match to feral bear and feral cat? This isn't even considering the characters who have paid for dual-spec and actively play two roles. If they generally only do one role, but often switch specs (to farm, for example) before logging off, then you won't count them "correctly". On the other hand, if they play two roles / specs about evenly, then they will jump between buckets depending on which they were when they last logged out and were rescanned.

This is just a WAG on my part, but I suspect you'd get less than 20% of the eligible multi-role-capable characters into your pre-defined buckets. It doesn't seem very statistically useful if the largest category is "none", given your stated reasons, and it seems like too much work for too little gain (to me) to have the website periodically fire off almost six million multi-page queries of the Armory.


Thanks for the discussion guys. I think that we are making this really thought provoking, at least for me. I have to agree with you that there are people playing "bad" or what they consider "fun" specs, intended for soloing. You are also correct that I personally FILTER non-level 80s, for the purpose of analyzing my realm, as they don't really pertain to what I am directly trying to analyze; however, it's not because I consider non-80s to be outliers. On my low population PVP server Rivendare, I have taken a count of over 10k characters, and just over 5k are level 80s. I have noticed that the more I scan, this number seems to concidently approach 50%. I would say that 50% of wow is anything but an outlier.

As far as your 20% WAG, I can't see how that would be the case. Almost everyone is in a clearly defined state. There isnt a person that I have ever asked what spec they are, where I have not been able to get a main spec answer and an offspec answer. I am sure you have a decent bit of thought to your wag #, and perhaps you have misunderstood some of my answers. We may need to continue a little more back and forth. Also, FYI, you don't have to eliminate the person holding the fishing pole. While my GM does this, and its irksome that you can't get an accurate reading of his GS in wowheroes, you can clearly tell that he is ret.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1974ER wrote:
I have to agree with a lot of things Kosh said... Answer 1 is highly realm dependant. You would get most accurate data out of pure normal (lots of PvE specs and gear) and PvP (lots of PvP specs and gear) realms and the least accurate out of pure RP (lots of RP specs and gear) ones, with RP-PvP (mixture of PvE, PxP and RP specs and gear) falling somewhere between those two extremes.

Answer 2, no not hiding, but actually USING a non-optimal spec (and/or gear)... speaking of which... you would need a huge number of "throw out" checks... putting 71 points into one tree is not a good idea either... but is a certain 5/51/15 better than 15/51/5 or maybe one should spec 3/51/17? Good spec but RP gear -> out, "bad" spec with good tank gear -> out, etc?

In short, as Kosh stated, you are likely to end up with a large amount (even majority) of "none" / "unclear" / "does not match parameters" specs / gear. Besides, overtly simplified system could cause cases where a mage does not qualify as ranged DPS, rogue is not a melee DPS, resto spec shamans / holy priests are not healers, etc... Does using a two-handed weapon automatically make a DK a DPS, etc?

Or.. how does a non-DPS, non-tank, non-caster druid (or paladin) grab you? WinkVery Happy


I think I need to continue to post for a while before we become clear on our thoughts. I also wouldn't mind chatting with you about this topic on vent.

All pures are automatically easy to determine whether they are melee or ranged dps. Its that simple. They are never anything but that. From that point, you only need to be able to classify a rogue as assassination, combat, or subtlety. My answer is pick the highest number. If they are 21/25/25, count them as an outlier (or maybe half the first 25 and half the 2nd). If they are 35/36/0, count the 36. Its not necessary to have 51 points in a spec to qualify as being that spec. My follow-up question that may be good guidance is that wow is planning to a mastery system in cataclysm. How would they handle it?
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FuxieDK wrote:
Warlocks often use a 0/41/30 spec, which at first glance looks to be out of wack, but it's not.. It's commonly know as the Felguard-spec.

And even though it lacks the 51-point talent (which is the most common way of identifying a spec), this particular spec is actually a viable demonology PvE-spec.
You maximize your personal dps with it, with the expense of sacrifice of raid-buffs..
It will out-dps Meta/Ruin-spec (also a Demo-spec), but the lack of raid buffs, makes it less efficient for the raid as a whole..
It will probably NOT out-dps 0/17/54 (Destro-spec), but it's popular, because it's less gear-demanding..


Thanks for the info on warlocks. Let me know if you have any trouble on how to categorize these.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balgair wrote:
There's also just plain fun specs, I've got a 30/28/3 priest and 23/37/1 warlock, both lvl 70 so ok may not be counted anyway, but they're not intentionally bad specs, just not-so-common ones that are fun to play (dps/soloing build for the priest; I hate shadow, love holy dps!) and perfectly adequate for soloing so I really do play with them. Would be a bit tricky to decide what to do with cases like that, since they're genuine really-used specs; should they be ignored just because they don't fit a pigeonhole determined byan arbritary group of people? Not arguing for or against, just mentioning it as a question Smile


Perhaps you guys are making me realize that these specs are slightly more common than I realize, though I don't know how much so. I bet it would be a useful feature to even be able to categorize the # of destro locks found by spec. As far as the lock thats 23/37/1, its easy, I just count the 37. As far as the priest is concerned, its a little more bothersome, though the simple answer for the purposes of a census is to count the 30 number. Either way, its still easy to categorize you as a healer (points in either holy or disc is more of a judgement call as to whether u will need to bubble more or heal more). The question as to whether you spec to heal the tank or spec to heal the raid is not as much of a concern for a non-lvl 80 that will not be doing end-lvl raiding. It would be more of a concern if it was a mix of disc and shadow (ie, for pvp). Its still possible for a program to distinguish between pve gear and pvp gear.

Also, what I still doubt is that many of you have level 80s with a certain gear score that is raiding as one of these dubious specs.

How many of you tank as death knight or feral druid, where a skilled raid leader upon inspecting your current gear set, could not tell whether you are intending to tank or melee dps?

I know that when I go into wowheroes, I can select to organize my dk search by tank or by dps, so they had to figure out a way to tell.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kosh wrote:
aberman wrote:
This would not have to be done live in the game at the same time as the "/who" lookup, but it could if programmed to do so.
Uh, how? An addon has no way to access anything outside the game, including Armory web pages.


Sorry I didn't answer this question.

It is clear that Census+ stores the data gathered in-game and maintains it in a file even when out of game. It is possible that when out of game, then user could click on a launching application (.exe file within the Census+ folder) that takes the in-game information which was gathered, access the armory via the web (still out of game), and import the missing information needed based on the players gathered while in-game. Since most people are dual-spec, you would probably use the one that has the "*" by it to indicate that is the spec with the best gear.
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